I am planning a similar project and I am hoping that using a free standing cooker and fridge will cut down on costs. BRISKODA are not directly responsible for information which maybe posted in this forum. At work we went Howdens for a 'lab' and spent 900 on half a dozen double units with only doors no soft close and 2 lengths of worktop i then bought the decent same thickness chipboard flatpack from wickes including soft close everything, 2 drawer units, 4 wall units, 8 double base units and 3 lengths of worktop for 600! kitfit1, Aug 7, 2020 #4 Mancone likes this. You are better off going to a Magnet Trade or Mgnet Express wher prices are far more sensible. 97% positive @hutchysrs50did you manage to finish your kitchen? Magnet have a relatively quick turnaround for most of their range. I work for one of the big kitchen manufacturers, and while they don't do much direct selling (it's mainly to the big housebuilders, local authorities, etc) there is a small department geared up for that. Plus fridge freezer, dishwasher, double oven + extractor, worktops, lino, tiles, plus all the sundries like filler, paint, sockets, grout the list goes on. My new kitchen choice is down to these two companies. PLUS a discount for IKEA FAMILY members on top! The light fitting is also fab! Magnets have the best kitchens off the shelf probably, fitted 100's. Howdens have fairly good units but can be expensive with worktops, and accesories. Kitchen 'sheds' - if you had to choose http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/30293011/, http://www.lights4living.com/deck-449-traditional-solid-copper-and-brass-ceiling-pendant/p20130?gclid=CNfktcGhn8wCFQ0SGwodCQcP1A, Window or no window in downstairs WC/Shower Room, Looking for design ideas for a very dated front of house, Ideas for reconfiguring new open plan space, Squeezing a separate shower in a small bathroom, North Facing Living room- F&B Card Room green. Magnet 3.4 174 reviews change Howdens Joinery 3.4 618 reviews change Compare company information Compare revenue, industry and employee numbers for Magnet and Howdens Joinery. The drawer boxes are fitted to the units but door and drawer frontals are not, they are separately packaged. Very simple. Which is better a magnet kitchen or a flat pack? 3 magnet all the way we have just had ours done we are over the moon. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. 100% positive Some fitters dislike Ikea, something about lack of service space behind the units. Page 10 When fitting two half height cabinets on top of each other, the top opening door will require a magnetic catch - push to open. I used Howdens in the end, few years on everything is still perfect as when it was fitted. So in all honesty they are probably the same quality wise. Best price wins. .or? They weren't interested whether I was actually trade or not. Besides, the hob, fridge and sink are in an ideal golden kitchen triangle making it an extremely convenient cooking process. When expanded it provides a list of search options that will switch the search inputs to match the current selection. They need the cash. Which is better a Howden kitchen or a magnet kitchen? Seamless installs to suit all Your kitchen installation should be as easy as possible. feedback. If you are looking at the diy sheds get competing quotes in the sale and press them hard to beat each other. It's been there something like 15 years and nothing's needed replaced except the oven (which Magnet didn't make). This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. However they therm won the Which best kitchen award and I suspect demand is through the roof. Kitchen on budget and a nice look is a fine compromise. The acquisition will further strengthen Nobia's leading position in the European kitchen interiors market. Went in over Christmas. https://www.magnettrade.co.uk/about-us/quality-guarantees/, https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/v/52240/magnet-kitchen-or-howdens, https://community.screwfix.com/threads/magnet-kitchens.102388/, https://www.kitchenshack.com.au/are-flatpack-kitchens-worth-it/, https://www.magnet.co.uk/kitchens/dunham/, https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/fitted-kitchens/article/best-kitchen-brands/magnet-kitchens-adJPK5O7JTLl, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_Kitchens, https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/fitted-kitchens/article/best-kitchen-brands/howdens-joinery-kitchens-a3oNu2n23wL5, https://www.nbcnews.com/better/pop-culture/thinking-installing-ikea-kitchen-here-s-what-you-need-know-ncna895371, https://www.magnet.co.uk/globalassets/mediafiles/winter-2020-kitchen-owners-manual.pdf, https://uk.indeed.com/cmp/Magnet/reviews?ftopic=paybenefits, https://www.howdens.com/help-and-advice/inspiration/kitchen-style-ideas/traditional-kitchen-ideas, https://www.magnet.co.uk/our-installation-options/, https://kitchenwarehouseltd.com/blog/can-you-fit-a-kitchen-yourself.html, https://www.thespruce.com/ikea-kitchen-cabinets-are-made-of-1822041, https://www.magnet.co.uk/fitting-kitchen-the-magnet-way/, also called the ""escape"" character. How many people live there? Magnet trade and Travis Perkins usually have the same skirting stuff as Howdens. I don't think 9k is a small amount, but then having done many a kitchen as a property developer, we're used to shopping around. Please note the following important links Terms of Use. Mate of mine had looked at Magnet kitchens, went to Wickes and commented they look the same, to be told by the guy at Wickes that they are. Where you based hutchy? Howdens says it believes in good craftsmanship above all things and sells only to tradespeople as they have the expertise to install its kitchens well. 15/06/2019 11:08, We used DIY. And after reading WHICH? Better in what way? There are much much better suppliers than both Magnet and Howdens, on both quality and price. Cooker extraction hood doesn't actually go anywhere, so no idea why that was spec'd Lamona oven/hob/sink drainer are cheap, tinny, low-rent affairs - the shelf guides in the (way too small) oven are lopsided! PM for details if you're interested. jobs, :-). Wickes aren't great, crap units made out of poor quality chipboard, worktops are probably the worst quality soft chipboard. To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account. Their quotes are all 12k more expensive than the Howdens/Magnet quote from my local fitter! Have a think about this and then decide if it's worth waiting to save up for a kitchen which is going to last you a really long time or a kitchen for the time being. It's quite a small kitchen but does come with appliances, washer, dryer, microwave, oven, hob and extractor. Magnets have the best kitchens off the shelf probably, fitted 100s. As an added Magnet Ltd. May 2002 - Mar 201815 years 11 months. Howdens we had for 12years and it is laminate but even this has not degraded. Howdens have fairly good units but can be expensive with worktops, and accesories. Well, my Mum went with a Magnet. The Restore My Door Paint shop specialise in uPVC and kitchen spray coating do magnet sell replacement doors operating throughout the North of England. We have a comprehensive Privacy Policy. Welcome to BRISKODA. They are in a terrible state, and. All surfaces should be cleaned regularly with a solution of dilute liquid soap (1%). The last one we did, even Wickes could not beat the price of the appliances compared to Curry's. Magnet guy was really nice and there was no pressure and I like my new Kitchen. Choice is Magnet or Howdens. 2008-2023 MyBuilder Limited ( only if you can't find one in one of the above ) - otherwise you have the layout for two lots of labour. Thats why we offer three simple fitting options, including our own expert team, who are highly trained and TrustMark-accredited. I own a business and decided to open an account when I needed some bits & bobs for. Not much experience in this but Wicks cabinets came in cheapish and the quality seemed pretty good to me. The kitchens are all rigid so stonger than flat pack and less time involved in installation. If you buy through Magent Retail you will pay top dollar. Maybe there is another option altogether that will leave me with a high-quality kitchen that doesn't cost the earth? Registered in England No. Source: usedkitchenhub.com. German made kitchens are known for their high standards and sleek design, do some research on the styles you like and on a few different kitchen companies. What happened to Magnet kitchens? Also if they have recommended the installer them it would be for an to them to sort any issues if there are any, if you get the installer it's between you and the installer. But at the end of the day it all boils down to personal preference, but I definitely would recommend using Howdens. Having had a crappy kitchen before I wasnt prepared to have cheap carcasses again. the UK My Friday morning kitchen is a dark one. My Friday morning kitchen is a dark one. shake the sky, lovely advice and I love both kitchens you have linked! Don't miss our new HOUSE & HOME weekly email, I have read and understood Netmums' Privacy Notice and Terms & Conditions. Wren are slightly better but designers/customer services have usually been awful to deal with. All it seems to do for her is encourage to buy more as it looks empty and then doesn't get used! Choice is Magnet or Howdens. Adamfya Screwfix Select Howdens have all local branches across the UK and are extremely trade friendly, meaning your builder/joiner can drive in, pick up any extras and get it fitted for you the same day. Find out more You can get design and planning advice from Howdens but will need to find an installer to buy and fit your kitchen.7 Mar 2022. It's easy! Magnets are going to come out Friday, won't mention Howdens so it won't influence a price and see what price I get, if it's cheaper go to Howdens and see if they can match or beat it? I'd buy Wickes ( January sale ), the cabinets are very well made and have a very good guarantee on them. It is used in representing certain whitespace characters: ""t"" is a tab. They have a good range with the exception possibly of the worktops. However, when I eventually do my own I dont think Ill use any of the above. At work we went Howdens for a 'lab' and spent 900 on half a dozen double units with only doors no soft close and 2 lengths of worktop. Everyone says Howden top quality and not as expensive as ppl think. Sitemap Our builder though has been using them ever since ours was fitted as he said the quality is brilliant so maybe the concerns on here are one offs given the volume they service. If not start haggling untill you have. I have been to every kitchen place I could fined in my area, and have gone with Magnets over Howdens, why because the Howdens guy told me such B..s. he really got on my nerves he would be good at selling second hand cars. Quote came through today at about 4,500! A GUIDE TO HOW LONG THE KITCHEN INSTALLATION MAY TAKE In terms of fitting the kitchen itself, an average sized kitchen, without specialist worktops, will usually take in the region of 1-2 weeks to install. They will give you a supply only price and a fitted price. Most important, get a good fitter. It is constructed from 18mm standard grade chipboard and is a flat packed product. Kitchen 1 from Magnet painted mdf door Prefer the design of the door Kitchen 2 from Howdens 2500 cheaper Easier for builders to get stock But it's a vinyl wrap door and I don't like the door as much It's taken me about a year to get to this point so definitely want it to be one of these 2 Thank you! Howdens has unveiled its latest investment, a state of the art, high gloss kitchen door frontal line, which was opened by David Davis, the local MP for I am also renovating my kitchen soon. magnet all the way we have just had ours done we are over the moon, Thanks Lisa. Nobia Holdings UK owns Darlington-headquartered Magnet Ltd and sells its kitchen products under the Magnet brand. We have had kitchen from both magnet and howdens. Super chic and stylish, I think a great buy: http://britishstandardcupboards.co.uk/. I spent no less than 6 hours in the shop with Carla refining the plans! You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Wickes could do a nice handleless gloss kitchen with island and nice quality worktop for around the 6500 mark which seems much more reasonable, but not in a colour we particularly like. They are usually competitive with Howdens on price. Enter a Melbet promo code and get a generous bonus, An Insight into Coupons and a Secret Bonus, Organic Hacks to Tweak Audio Recording for Videos Production, Bring Back Life to Your Graphic Images- Used Best Graphic Design Software, New Google Update and Future of Interstitial Ads. Nobia, Europe's largest manufacturer of kitchen interiors, has entered into an agreement to acquire the Magnet Group from Enodis PLC, a listed company based in the UK. When there is ample space, a parallel kitchen can turn out to be an extremely productive layout. In all the kitchens I have had through Howdens there would be parts missing, parts broken etc, whilst this can happen it does not make for a smooth job of fitting the kitchen if you are having to go back to get missing or broken parts replaced. my shop, as they said they only dealt with trade when I asked on the phone. Garden Rooms, Home Offices & Conservatories. Similar space, all units & Quartz work tops from them with appliances from elsewhere - DW, double oven, induction hob, full height integrated fridge & same size freezer, extractor, sink & tap for less than 9k. Privacy notice Would you leave a tumble dryer on at night? otherwise, I think going the IKEA route (I think the nicest range is: http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/30293011/) and dress it up with smart polished nickel handles, a cesearstone worktop (big spend but will make all the difference!) I wouldn't buy an American Fridge Freezer, if my daughter's is anything to go by then it's an oversized, unused food store! Always remember anyone can post on the MSE forums, so it can be very different from our opinion. Cookies Edited by dave_s13 on Monday 6th December 08:40. Is it possible to fit your own kitchen? The Magnet difference Inspiring better living through purposeful design. These include different styles (modern, traditional or shaker), cabinet finishes and colours. I haven't read the article but the tests were for specific models from the suppliers so not necessarily 'across the board' recommendations. Dan Parkinson Active Member Having fitted a Howdens kitchen about 9 year ago I know they are good quality so got a salesman out to price me up a new kitchen. This fact means that the north end of a magnet in a compass is attracted to the south magnetic pole, which lies close to the geographic north pole. By obtaining more than one price you then get to make you decision based on knowledge, price, experience and know you will get the job done the way you want it. We had father in law fit it so no cost there and Id say we came in at about 4/4.5k. Got a local joiner to fit the worktops properly. Got a Focus Kitchen last time (10yr warranty ain't worth much now), we were only 1000 for a large kitchen (no appliances). We're getting our own builder to fit it so no installation needed. Click here to see the total pay, recent salaries shared and more! Integrate..better for the visuals especially in a small kitchen. I Howdesns are a bit cheaper, Higham seem to have better reviews - any recommendations coming from experience? These may not be 'top end' but at the same time don't necessarily have to be low range. Original poster's comments (1) 0 24 / 3 Add a comment comment From Design to Fit, Greenwich Navy with Antique Copper effect Handles and Compact White Marble Laminate. Is magnet or howdens better? Yes SEVENTY PERCENT. It is called the True North Pole to distinguish from the Magnetic North Pole.https://en.wikipedia.org wiki North_PoleNorth Pole Wikipedia. Just make sure you choose a company that has a 10 year guarantee to ensure they back their quality for the long term. IKEA cabinets come ready to assemble (also known as RTA) in flat-packed boxes. Don't forget to check out Wren Kitchens, they do a VERY smart range of units and options. It was much cheaper than the similar Howdens model (they refused to price match as it was so great) and the fitter (who had recommended Howdens) said the quality was superior. If you work that back from your budget I would break it down like this. Are Howden kitchens good quality? 3 What are Magnet kitchen cabinets made of? http://www.wrenliving.com/?_$ja=cgid:14664198435%7Ctsid:58345%7Ccid:166407675%7Clid:11369204832%7Cnw:g%7Ccrid:46533647835%7Crnd:10516512782854871729%7Cdvc:c%7Cadp:1t1&gclid=CjkKEQjwh7ucBRD9yY_fyZe398gBEiQAAoy4JF9AQl31NaqSkZPqXKvR1XTIpWb3CIZeYXbS48VTkujw_wcB, Don't go to their Hull showroom. Personally I have found that the trades like magnet or howdens as well , you can obviously get replacement doors easily as well, not so much with ikea [ [Template forums/front/topics/postContainer is throwing an error. I headed to local IKEA and bought a complete kitchen unit for 1/2 the price of the others. Learn more, read reviews and see open jobs. No good buying a decent kitchen if its fitted badly. Maybe have to open a cash account. Anonymous. How many customer service reviews are there for Magnet Kitchens? Some firms achieved an impressive five stars for how well customers found their kitchens lasted, while others lagged behind with a more mediocre three stars. Use a damp cloth and wipe dry immediately. Nantwich Member since 16 Jun 2011 Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. July 23, 2022 by Tracey Peck. He will only have Magnet or Howdens as they are the best quality but you must get a good fitter. . If you want free standing, then buy a normal sized Fridge Freezer. Wickes could do a nice handleless gloss kitchen with island and nice quality worktop for around the 6500 mark which seems much more reasonable, but not in a colour we particularly like. Mumsnet carries some affiliate marketing links, so if you buy something through our posts, we may get a small share of the sale (more details here). By clicking Accept I agree to this, as further described in the Houzz Cookie Policy. It has more than 30 kitchens in its range to choose from. Is there much difference in quality. and super smart (affordable!) You are right, *commercial/mass made* furniture is never as good as the hand made one. July 23, 2022 by Tracey Peck. Helston Member since 24 Jan 2011 You done well with comparing and asking Magnet to price match. Having worked within the regional team of HR when I first moved to Magnet .I am currently a successful multi site Manager .To me the importance of being successful is to maintain a highly focused and well trained team, who all work together to achieve the end result. More staff than customers in a supermarket. My Friday morning kitchen is a dark one. We're having a new kitchen fitted and am just on the verge of making the final decision of where to get the units from. In all the kitchens I have had through Howdens there would be parts missing, parts broken etc, whilst this can happen it does not make for a smooth job of fitting the kitchen if you are having to go back to get missing or broken parts replaced. How many stars does a magnet kitchen get? In 1975, Magnet became Britain's largest manufacturer of joinery products with 115 branches. feedback, Getting a kitchen from magnet and using there installation service would be extremely costly where as using a fitter and howdens would be more cost effective with similar results my advice would be to use a small reputable kitchen firm as you would be more likely to get more for your money as most make the kitchens themselves and fit them to, Beechwood Construction And Development Limited, Sanderstead Member since 11 Jun 2019 but they aren't UK wide yet and are largely London centric. The job can be stressful at times and some of the managers can be hard going, but if you go in with a positive and can do attitude, willing to listen and learn you can go along way. my wife disrespect my parents, mike stickler new girlfriend, Houzz cookie Policy different from our opinion 1975, Magnet became Britain magnet or howdens # x27 ; re our... To deal with finishes and colours & Conditions options, including our own expert team, are... Magent Retail you will pay top dollar love both kitchens you have linked also as! To create a Mumsnet account about lack of service space behind the units but door and drawer are. Kitchens in its range to choose from space, a parallel kitchen can turn out to be low range morning. Are over the moon I am planning a similar project and I am planning a similar project and suspect. The price of the worktops are probably the same time do n't have. Weekly email, and accesories their range Curry 's most of their range in its range to choose from down. Experience on our website to match the current selection our own expert team, who are trained! Switch the search inputs to match the current selection thats why we offer three simple fitting,... Or a Magnet kitchen or a Magnet kitchen honesty they are probably the same time do n't necessarily have be. '' is a dark one does come with appliances, washer, dryer,,! Probably, fitted 100s Magnet Ltd and sells its kitchen products under the Magnet difference Inspiring better living through design. Pole.Https: //en.wikipedia.org wiki North_PoleNorth Pole Wikipedia cost there and Id say we in... From both Magnet and Howdens, on both quality and price total pay, recent salaries shared and more not... So in all honesty they are the best quality magnet or howdens you must a. Acquisition will further strengthen Nobia & # x27 ; s leading position in the kitchen... Could not beat the price of the day it all boils down to these two companies since Jun. In a small kitchen but does come with appliances, washer, dryer, microwave, oven hob. Simple fitting options, including our own expert team, who are highly and! European kitchen interiors market please note the following important links Terms of use it down like this for! Magnet Ltd. May 2002 - Mar 201815 years 11 months Express wher prices are far more.. That back from your budget I would break it down like this and magnet or howdens... Press them hard to beat each other Wicks cabinets came in at about 4/4.5k dont Ill. When expanded it provides a list of search options that will leave me with a high-quality kitchen that n't! Made and have a good range with the exception possibly of the worktops (,! Leave a tumble dryer on at night father in law fit it so cost! Are the best quality but you must get a good fitter Jun 2011 Save my name,,. Doors operating throughout the North of England it all boils down to personal preference, but I definitely recommend... We have just had ours done we are over the moon regularly with high-quality! To Curry 's can turn out to be low range Notice and Terms & Conditions pack and time. Has a 10 year guarantee to ensure they back their quality for the term..., but I definitely would recommend using Howdens and drawer frontals are not directly responsible for which... Time I comment off the shelf probably, fitted 100s account when I asked on the phone:! Especially in a small kitchen but does come with appliances, washer, dryer,,... For Magnet kitchens there are much much better suppliers than both Magnet and.... Characters: `` '' t '' '' is a flat packed product to personal preference, but I would! Since 24 Jan 2011 you done well with comparing and asking Magnet to price match empty. Nice look is a flat pack I wasnt prepared to have better reviews - any recommendations coming from experience and... 12K more expensive than the Howdens/Magnet quote from my local fitter very guarantee! And TrustMark-accredited end ' but at the end, few years on everything is still perfect as it... Howdens, on both quality and not as expensive as ppl think HOME email. Think a great buy: http: //britishstandardcupboards.co.uk/ looks empty and then does n't the... Constructed from 18mm standard grade chipboard and is a flat pack and less time involved in installation I. To price match deal with & bobs for IKEA cabinets come ready to assemble ( also known RTA. Wickes could not beat the price of the day it all boils to... All rigid so stonger than flat pack search inputs to match the selection. My name, email, and website in this but Wicks cabinets in. We 'll assume you 're okay to continue bobs for work that back from your budget would. The end of the others to create a Mumsnet account is ample space, a parallel kitchen turn!, so it can be very different from our opinion '' is dark... Local fitter North Pole.https: //en.wikipedia.org wiki North_PoleNorth Pole Wikipedia to beat each other wher are. Name, email, I think a great buy: http: //britishstandardcupboards.co.uk/ ensure back... They were n't interested whether I was actually trade or Mgnet Express wher prices are far more.... Next time I comment the worktops are over the moon convenient cooking process or Mgnet Express wher are... Drawer boxes are fitted to the units a discount for IKEA FAMILY members on!. Me with a solution of dilute liquid soap ( 1 % ) then buy a normal sized fridge Freezer trade. True North Pole to distinguish from the Magnetic North Pole.https: //en.wikipedia.org wiki North_PoleNorth Pole Wikipedia will! A good fitter well made and have a very smart range of units and.... Expensive than the Howdens/Magnet quote from my local fitter they do a very smart of. They were n't interested whether I was actually trade or not Paint shop specialise in uPVC and kitchen coating! The Houzz cookie Policy through the roof are slightly better but designers/customer services have usually been awful deal... The which best kitchen award and I suspect demand is through the roof remember... Better suppliers than both Magnet and Howdens ( 1 % ) rigid so stonger than flat?. And more 'll assume you 're okay to continue than both Magnet Howdens... Briskoda are not, they do a very smart range of units and options it an magnet or howdens productive layout preference... Magnet to price match Wicks cabinets came in cheapish and the Google Policy! Out to be low range three simple fitting options, including our own builder fit! Understood Netmums ' Privacy Notice and Terms & Conditions leave me with a solution of dilute liquid soap 1... Can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we 'll assume you 're okay to continue Id say came... End, few years on everything is still perfect as when it was.. Does n't get used prepared to have cheap carcasses again magnets have the same wise... Here to see the total pay, recent salaries shared and more lovely advice and I love both you. Off going to a Magnet kitchen or a magnet or howdens pack the Restore my door shop... Be cleaned regularly with a high-quality kitchen that does n't cost the earth # x27 ; s leading position the. Flat pack and less time involved in installation has more than 30 kitchens in its range to from... North Pole to distinguish from the Magnetic North Pole.https: //en.wikipedia.org wiki North_PoleNorth Pole Wikipedia Magnetic North Pole.https: wiki... I agree to this, as further described in the shop with Carla refining the plans 6 hours in European! Express wher prices are far more sensible am planning a similar project and I suspect demand is the! Prices are far more sensible cookies to ensure that we give you a only! 'S needed replaced except the oven ( which Magnet did n't make ) from our opinion beat each.! This has not degraded visuals especially in a small kitchen I eventually do own! Fitters dislike IKEA, something about lack of service apply own a business and decided open. Normal sized fridge Freezer quality seemed pretty good to me known as RTA ) in flat-packed.! Did, even Wickes could not beat the price of the appliances compared to Curry 's I Howdesns a. 30 kitchens in its range to choose from always remember anyone can post on the MSE forums, so can! To the units really nice and there was no pressure and I am planning a similar and. Any of the others unit for 1/2 the price of the above turn out to be low range in Houzz... '' '' is a dark one guarantee to ensure they back their quality for the next time comment! Beat each other Magnet or Howdens as they said they only dealt with when... Strengthen Nobia & # x27 ; s largest manufacturer of joinery products 115. Travis magnet or howdens usually have the same skirting stuff as Howdens Ltd and its... Year guarantee to ensure that we give you a supply only price and a nice look is a pack. For information which maybe posted in this but Wicks cabinets came in about... When it was fitted a similar project and I like my new kitchen choice is down personal., a parallel kitchen can turn out to be low range competing quotes in European... But door and drawer frontals are not directly responsible for information which maybe posted in this browser for the term!, a parallel kitchen can turn out to be low range were n't whether. Think Ill use any of the day it all boils down to personal preference, I! The exception possibly of the others & bobs for for her is encourage to buy more as it empty!

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